The Bar Business Podcast: Smart Hospitality & Marketing Secrets For Bar & Pub Owners
Welcome to the Bar Business Podcast, where we help bar owners increase profits, attract loyal guests, and simplify operations without burnout so you can finally enjoy life outside the bar. Our host, Chris Schneider, draws on his over twenty years of experience in the industry to bring you valuable insights and practical advice every week. From creating a winning menu and designing a stylish bar, to effective marketing strategies and HR best practices, we've got you covered. Join us on the journey to bar business success and take the first step towards a brighter future for your establishment.
The Bar Business Podcast: Smart Hospitality & Marketing Secrets For Bar & Pub Owners
Shelby Hiltunen on Elevating Bar Brands with Strategic Design
Unlock the secrets to creating a standout brand identity for your bar with expert insights from Shelby Hiltunen, owner of Hold My Crown. Shelby joins us to discuss everything from selecting the right fonts and colors to crafting a mood board that captures your bar's unique personality. Whether you manage an upscale cocktail lounge or a cozy dive bar, you'll discover how a cohesive brand kit can attract and retain patrons more effectively than ever before.
Explore the different ways to create your bar's website, and learn why having direct control over your site's content is crucial for making timely updates and customizations. Shelby breaks down the pros and cons of single-page versus multi-page websites and highlights the importance of a seamless user experience across both mobile and desktop versions. Don't miss our discussion on reflecting your bar's vibe online, from landing pages for specials to integrated web menus that enhance the overall customer experience.
Finally, discover practical strategies for leveraging your bartenders' storytelling skills to boost social media engagement. Shelby shares tips on creating consistent and engaging short-form video content and emphasizes the importance of clear calls to action. We also touch on personalized marketing strategies, the value of treating your staff well, and the significance of building a strong community within the bar industry. Join us for actionable insights and take your bar to the next level!
Contact Shelby:
Hold My Crown Website
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The Usual Series
Welcome to the Bar Business Podcast, where we help bar owners increase profits, attract loyal guests, and simplify operations without burnout so you can finally enjoy life outside the bar. Our podcast is packed with valuable insights, expert advice, and inspiring stories from successful bar owners and industry professionals.
Thank you to our show sponsor, SpotOn. SpotOn's modern, cloud-based POS system allows bars to increase team productivity and provides the reporting you need to make smart financial decisions.
**We are a SpotOn affiliate and earn commissions from the link above.
Thank you to our benchmarking data partner Starfish. Starfish works with your bookkeeping software using AI to help you make data-driven decisions and maximize your profits while giving you benchmarking data to understand how you compare to the industry at large.
Learn More:
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You're listening to the Bar Business Podcast where every week, your host, chris Schneider, brings you information, strategies and news on the bar industry, giving you the competitive edge you need to start working on your bar rather than in your bar.
Chris Schneider:Hello and welcome to this week's edition of the Bar Business Podcast, your ultimate resource for bar owners. I'm your host, Chris Schneider, and this week we are joined by Shelby Hiltunen. She owns Hold my Crown, where she does innovative website design and story consulting. So that's really what we're going to talk about. A lot today is web design.
Chris Schneider:Shelby has a lot of experience in and around the bar industry but currently does not work in the industry because she's doing web design. And I think for a lot of bar owners, one of the things that we struggle with is web design, particularly because you go online, you read a bunch of stuff and no one agrees with each other and everything is complex and, quite frankly, if you're worried about cocktail recipes, you're probably not worried about things like graphics and fonts and colors and those sorts of things. So Shelby has spent time, as I mentioned, she's from Indianapolis, but she spent a bunch of time in New York City where she wrote, directed and produced media and now, since she's moved back, she's still in that media game but is also expanding the web design business that she's been doing web design, from what I understand, off and on for years. So with that Shelby I probably botched some of that a little bit. So fill us in a little bit on your background and just introduce yourself to the listeners.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, no, that was beautiful, and thank you for pronouncing my name right. You did it. That was great. I'm proud of you.
Shelby Hiltunen:So yeah, I lived in New York for about seven years and I bartended my way through acting school and so the most exciting media project that the bar owners will be excited about is my series called the Usual, which shows life moments of New Yorkers through the eyes of a bartender.
Shelby Hiltunen:So that's kind of my love letter to the industry, because I think once you're in the industry and you have a love for it, it kind of just doesn't go away. It's like in your heart or it's not. It's very much in my heart, so yeah. So I started producing videos and made that web series and put it through the film festival circuit, joined a small media company in Indianapolis called Naptown Media, where I've done a bunch of documentaries and that kind of thing, and started getting really excited and about working with small businesses and consultants, helping them build their brands and kind of walking them through the design process, because it can be pretty intimidating if you don't know about it at first, and so I kind of see myself as that middleman between the technical and the people who have no idea and I'm like we can all be friends.
Chris Schneider:Well, and that's important because it is like I said in the intro there's a lot of things daunting about running a small business and branding is one of them. Right, because there are definitely rules you're supposed to follow. There are things you should do and it's not always on top of mind, especially if you have a bar. Right, because you're worried about your kegerator broke, you're worried about your walk-in, you're worried about your liquor orders. Branding is way down that list, yep, but if you don't have it, you're not presenting well, you're not bringing in the guests you should be. So, when you look at branding and brand packages, what things do people even need when it comes to a brand? Because I think there's a lot of folks that don't think through necessarily all the individual pieces that are actually involved in having a good brand strategy.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, sure. So I think the most important thing is that you know what your bar's personality is Like. What is your bar? Are you an upscale cocktail bar looking to you know, people find first love on their first date. Are you a dive bar where your patient your I almost called them patients, oh my gosh, that's hilarious when your patrons are throwing darts at the wall, like, what is your personality, you know?
Shelby Hiltunen:And then I personally like to make kind of a mood board of an aesthetic. So it's like, okay, if I'm let's, let's call it where the dive bar, because that's kind of what we've talked about a little bit before. So where the dive bar. So you've got, maybe, a wooden bar and you've got pint glasses stacked up and you've got the dartboards. So I'm going to put pictures of dartboards and the wooden countertop and the you know, the chalkboard font that you have, that your bartender is writing every day, and I'm going to make a mood board of all of these things and then talk to you about, okay, what do you want your patrons to feel when they come into the bar? You want it to be comfortable, conversational, you want them to feel at home. It's kind of like a cozy, shabby vibe, right.
Shelby Hiltunen:So then you take that into all of your branding. You say, okay, what's my font? We're not going to use a beautiful, elegant cursive for this dive bar. Your patrons would be like what the hell are you doing? You're going to find an easy, very easy to read some kind of font.
Shelby Hiltunen:You're going to have probably a darker color scheme, maybe some neon signs in there, and we're bringing in some. I don't know, maybe there's a little bit of signs in there and we're bringing in some like. I don't know, maybe there's like a little bit of that in there. But once you know your personality and your kind of mood board, then you can find your, your fonts, your logo, your I like to call it like a brand kit. So you'll come up with kind of like phrases that go with your brand and explain, like your company, that anyone who works at your company can use at any given time and like represent your company in the way that you want it to be. So not everyone, no one's coming up with their own version of what it is. Everyone in your company knows this is what the company is, here's how we say it. We're saying the exact same thing and you can find consistency. That way, just by knowing who you are, does that make sense?
Chris Schneider:It makes perfect sense and what I like about that is it's starting from the brick and mortar, right. You're not trying to invent a different anything online. You're trying to project what's in person online. Yes, project what's in person online yeah, I think a lot of people get lost in that process. It's really because I had never thought about starting with a mood board, but I really liked that because it is. It allows you to see what the current brand looks like, right? Because if your website, to your point, if your website colors aren't reflecting what people see in store, it's going to be a little bit jarring.
Shelby Hiltunen:Right, you want to represent who you are. We're in this kind of age of Instagram where everything's fake and you're only seeing the highlight reels and whatever it is, which is okay. You can show the highlights of your bar and you can show all of that. But if your customer looks at the pictures that you're putting up and the fonts that you're putting up, you want them to know the feel that they're walking into, because you want a compatible customer as well, right? You? Maybe?
Shelby Hiltunen:don't want the person who wants the upscale bar to walk into your dive bar expecting, you know, beautiful cursive everywhere and white tablecloths. Right, you want it to be accurate as to the feel that you're inviting people into.
Chris Schneider:Yeah, and it really goes to something that a couple months ago on the podcast we had Dave Nitzel who was talking about Dave Kaplan. That owns Death Co in New York, and Dave Kaplan has a theory he calls the. Well, I'm not sure if Dave Kaplan calls it this or Dave Nitzel named it this based on Dave Kaplan, but they call it the inception archetype and it's the idea that your customer really when you have a customer coming into your bar, their experience starts when they think of it. Their experience starts when they search you online. So, as much as we talk about you know your food program and your liquor program need to fit together, otherwise people get confused. Your food program and your liquor program need to fit together, otherwise people get confused.
Chris Schneider:If the first experience people have with your brand is online and frankly, let's be honest here, dave Kaplan and Death Co they've done a lot right. They have a very great experience throughout, but by pushing that back to online, it makes sure that the guest is never confused confused to your point. You're not bringing in a guest. That doesn't fit your concept and I think that's also something you don't really hear people talk about in marketing is using marketing to weed out the wrong guest.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, absolutely. Well, hold on. First of all, I just have to make a comment, which is you didn't know which, dave came up with it. And then you talked about the inception concept, which is hilarious. But dave and dave, okay, that's my nerdy self coming out but um yeah, it's true, you don't.
Shelby Hiltunen:You don't want, like the old couple on their 50th anniversary, to come in to your dive bar and you also don't want the 20 year old kid who doesn't care about cocktails to come into death and co right thinking that that's for him. It's. It's kind of saving everyone time and money and energy at the end of the day, um which your energy and your time are the most important things, especially in this business where you know your bartenders are rushing. They have a lot of cocktails to make.
Shelby Hiltunen:They are. They have seven things in their brains at minimum at every single moment. So people are coming in questioning what it is and they don't know already, when you could have saved the time from your website a website that you put that on so that they can have that experience before they come in.
Chris Schneider:There's a lot of noise out there about which platforms to use, what type of websites to have all of that sort of stuff and frankly, I mean, if we're just being honest, a lot of it comes from those companies advertising right, because people are paying for blogs. People are writing blogs. So you go online and half the stuff you see is for blogs. People are writing blogs. So you go online and half the stuff you see is oh, go buy this program. And it's not necessarily just straightforward. But when it comes to platforms, I noticed the big question or the big issue a lot of people face is do I go with something like like Squarespace, where it's kind of plug and play, I can move it around, it's easy to do, versus something like WordPress where, yeah, you have way more customization options, but also Squarespace, you put some pictures on the screen and move them and you're done. Wordpress in general comes with some heavy coding.
Shelby Hiltunen:Right. So I think that this is.
Shelby Hiltunen:it depends on who the bar owner is and how much how much control they want to have over their website If they want to be able to come up with a landing page on their own at midnight, because they're a visionary and they're like okay, I want to at least have this as a storyboard to send to my graphic designers. They have an idea, and Squarespace would be a really easy way to do that. If you're someone who doesn't want to deal with the technical, then Squarespace. I love Squarespace personally, and that's what I work with most of the time. I've worked with WordPress as well, and you can do a lot of really amazing customizations, but you can do that in Squarespace too. You can. Actually, they have places where you can insert your own code and you know if there's a unique feature that they don't have, you can do that.
Shelby Hiltunen:But the thing that I think is most important is that the bar owner has control of it at any given moment. So I personally like I build everything for my clients and then I like to, if they're willing and if they want to, I like to have a teaching session where I walk them through. Hey, if you want to make these small changes, here's how you do it. If you want to look at your analytics, here's how you do it, and it's all in one place, because a lot of people. They make the website and then they sit it and they don't think about it ever again.
Shelby Hiltunen:But our industry is fluid, right. It's always changing. What if you've changed the Tuesday night specials and you want to go on there and change it and you can't get a hold of your web designer Because we're really busy? Right, you just want to be able to go to SpareSpace and change the date or change the whatever. So for me, I think it can be an amazing communication method. If you have something that the bar owner or whoever is in charge of your PR or your design, they have control to change it as easily and quickly as possible as you need for your business.
Chris Schneider:Well, that's something I hadn't thought about before we started talking, but it's huge. Because I know there's the stereotype of the web designer, that is, some dude that smokes a bunch of weed and hangs out in his basement and yeah, I mean, I'm sure you know people like that. I've told a number of them. But you run into the problem where I'm changing a special, I'm updating my hours, and okay, so you email them, they email you back a couple days later and you know, a week later your website's updated. Well, if the guest experience is starting with that website, how many people have you given bad information to for a week? Because if your hours say you're open until six and I show up at five and you're closed, that's not good.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, and then my experience is oh, they're not reliable immediately.
Shelby Hiltunen:So it's something that I think you can create a beautiful design, whatever it is you're looking for. With a platform like Squarespace, you can edit it and have it customized as much as you want. But you can also use it as a communication method. It can be a back and forth. It doesn't have to be something you just set and leave. It can be a business tool and you can look into your analytics and your marketing and you can set up you can set up ab testing for advertisements that you're using and you can track that and track your emails, and it really is more of a marketing analytical tool than just the design. The design is where it starts and that needs to be consistent with who you are in storytelling and all of this. But then the back end right, because at the end of the day, you're trying to run a bar and you still have to pay for those bar stools and you have to pay for the new rags and you have to pay.
Shelby Hiltunen:I hope everyone, by the way, is paying for that padding stuff that the bartenders have to step on all the time so they're not killing their backs. You have to pay for things like that, so you want to be able to track your website traffic in that way.
Chris Schneider:And I definitely want to get into the analytics here a little bit in a second. I definitely want to get into the analytics here a little bit in a second, but before we get there, one of the big arguments you see about websites is should I have a single-page landing page or should I have a multiple-page website? And I think and you may or may not agree with me I think both can work, but they're different strategies and have different potential views by the people looking at them and potentially they take them a different way. So what is your thought process on that?
Shelby Hiltunen:Well, actually, can I just ask you first, Because I'm really curious which?
Chris Schneider:one do you prefer. I think that the single pages are really good to throw up. If you're opening and you're trying to get something done, a single page is great, but I think, especially with bars and restaurants that do more complex things like if you have private events, things of that nature you probably need multiple pages just to be able to guide your person to the right spot.
Shelby Hiltunen:I completely agree. I completely agree. If there's a special that you have and you want a landing page for it, you can have that. You can have a space that is just for current events. You can have a space that is just cocktails. You have a space that is, you know, just for current events. You can have a space that is just cocktails. You have a space that's just your food menu and while you're knowing I keep talking about knowing your bar's personality well, it's the same thing with your website and showing that your chef is going to be. Hopefully they're all working together as a cohesive unit.
Chris Schneider:But what's the?
Shelby Hiltunen:personality of your menu. It's different from your cocktail menu. Is it different from your events? Because I'm definitely working with a different person in events than I am if I'm just walking in and going to the bar. So what's that experience like and how do you paint the picture of what the expectation should be for your client? And why wouldn't you To me? Why wouldn't you have multiple pages to show everything that you have?
Shelby Hiltunen:you know it's a nuanced business and I just I understand that there's like the, there is like something to the intuitive, cohesive movement of going through one page and it telling you kind of intuitive story. But you can do that on every page with every asset that your business has, so why wouldn't you do that?
Chris Schneider:And it, it, it to your point and just gives you more space to illustrate now along those lines because you brought up menus. So a question there, because I see a lot of bars and restaurants out there that just throw up a PDF and it works. I think sometimes it can come off a little lazy from a design perspective. Is that the way to go, or is it better to you know, type out each one within a website? How do you look at menus and how they present on websites?
Shelby Hiltunen:Well, it's what's your bar personality, you know? Are you a lazy bar personality or do you want that to be kind of your vibe? If that's your vibe, great. If you are a more upscale restaurant, then why aren't you putting the resources into every single aspect of your guest experience? So it just depends on how you serve your customer. Are you putting in that extra bit of effort? Are your service coming to the tables in bow ties? Then you should probably have some beautiful designs on that website, on that menu, and it should be this colorful, beautiful experience, because I'm paying for the experience. So it's all about what is the customer experience that you want to give, and then that can define how much effort you put into it.
Chris Schneider:That makes perfect sense and along those lines, because I know it's something that can be an issue with PDF menus, but also is just something that sometimes gets forgotten about, even though it shouldn't. Are you a fan of doing separate design for a mobile site versus a desktop site?
Shelby Hiltunen:So it's a whole thing converting a site from desktop to mobile? I think it's possible to. So I don't think that it's a whole thing converting a site from desktop to mobile. I think it's possible to, so I don't. I don't think that it's possible to have the same design like exactly, because it's just not going to transfer.
Shelby Hiltunen:You're not going to be able to see everything on your phone that you will the desktop, but should be most of these websites. Like when I'm designing in Squarespace I can. Then I see the display of what it would look like on a computer and then I see what it would look like on a phone. And you do need to make sure that the experience, no matter what they're looking at, is intuitive for them. Right? You want to make it as easy as possible for the customer to as soon as possible, know who you are, know what they're getting, know what they're buying and then immediately know how to buy it. Right? Make it as easy as humanly possible. So it should all be very easy for them. I don't know if I answered that question, but it should all be consistent.
Chris Schneider:Right, and you did answer the question. I think part of what this conversation is pointing out, too, is that when it comes to design, there are best practices, there are a lot of ways you can do things, but you're never really right or wrong as long as your customer gets what they need.
Shelby Hiltunen:Absolutely, absolutely. It's all about knowing your customer and, at the end of the day, we're selling right. You come back to this all the time is you're selling hospitality, you're selling connection, you're selling a human moment. So what moment are you selling right? And then everything you do should cater to that moment. You're selling and you should be very specific about that. As a bar owner, you need to know and then center your whole world around it and make it happen and that'll sell. That'll go over and over and over again.
Chris Schneider:One of the other things that I hear a lot of people discuss when it comes to web design, and it's using a newspaper term, actually, but above the fold, right. So when you open a website where, with a newspaper right above the fold, would obviously be what you see when you pull it out of the newspaper machines that I don't even know exist anymore, be what you see when you pull it out of the newspaper machines that I don't even know exist anymore Above the fold on a website being, when you land there, exactly what you see on your screen before anybody scrolls or does anything else. People will put varying ideas out about how much should be there, right. You hear some people say put a bunch of information there. You have some people that will say put very little. Where is kind of that right balance, if you will, and what are good elements to include in that top section of the website when people first land on your page?
Shelby Hiltunen:Sure. So the first look is always a feeling right, like do you believe in love? At first sight, some people do, some people don't. But it's that thought of you. Look and you immediately know exactly what it is. This resonates with my soul, this resonates with my tummy. This does not. If that first look above the fold does not show the feel of your bar immediately, then you really, really have a problem. And it can be a picture, it can be a video, it can be just a phrase, your catchphrase and your logo, it can be whatever it is, but does it give your customer the feel of when they walk into the your bar for the first time? Can they feel it immediately? Great, you've done well. Can they not feel it? Maybe you have some work to do, and it's not about the words, it's about the feel. They it. Maybe you have some work to do, and it's not about the words, it's about the feel. They'll give you their own words.
Shelby Hiltunen:You can give them the words later. But how do you give them that feeling? And that's where all the mood board comes, the mood board work and the the like. Finding the right fonts, finding the right colors, finding the right logo with the right feel for you. That's where all of that kind of comes together.
Chris Schneider:And one thing you mentioned there was videos. I know before we started recording this episode, you and I were talking a bit about videos and just how important it can be to have videos on a website, because it actually makes it more impactful, it makes it work better as a marketing tool.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, it's amazing. Can I just give some of the numbers to your listeners? Absolutely, because this kind of blew both of our minds beforehand. Okay, so this is according to uh, the beautiful google video content can increase organic traffic to landing pages by 157 percent, 157%. That's insane. It can increase brand recall by 95% and conversion rates by 80%. The numbers kind of go on and on and on, but the numbers are insane about how much video can help draw customers to your site.
Chris Schneider:So obviously, video and video is something you, being in production, are very familiar with. But I feel like a lot of bar owners, a lot of bar managers, are a little bit afraid of yeah, and there's definitely two sides to that, one of them being just, do I actually want to be on video? Because until you do it for a while it's kind of terrifying, like even I know from my podcasting, it was not comfortable the first time. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to let thousands of people around the world listen to what I have to say and realize if I'm an idiot or not, and that's kind of the fear people have. But then, on the other side of it, I feel like a lot of people get held up in the perfect being the enemy of the good, sometimes with production quality, and so where does the production quality on video matter? Where does it not matter? And how do you get past kind of that fear that most people that are not in production have about making a video and being in a video?
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, oh, my gosh, okay. So, first of all, a bar owner might never have to actually be on camera to have all their stuff sell, right Like. I've worked at bars that have incredible marketing practices and no one would ever know their bar owner from Adam right, which is really unfortunate because they're really amazing people. You don't have to actually show your face if you don't want to. It's how do you capture the feel of your restaurant? How do you capture the feel of the space? How do you capture the feel of the space and what your customer experience is?
Shelby Hiltunen:I think people get intimidated because they think it can cost a lot of money, they think that it can just be these short things and they don't see the value in it.
Shelby Hiltunen:But I think this goes back to what's your bar personality and how do you show that through video, right, if, like we were just talking before, if you are the, the local bar owner of the dive bar, and you want to just do videos of you talking out back, you know, saying funny jokes, or in the bar bathroom or the you know which I actually don't remember my camera or you know you behind the bar making jokes and that's the personality of your bar Great, if you're, you know Death Co or one of those beautiful upscale I mean they don't need me to tell them anything, but you know, maybe they show a beautiful video of a cocktail being made. You know there are a ton of those online, with probably a dark backdrop, because that's their vibe, and lots of probably like smoke effects and this kind of thing. Right, you're going to invest more because they are investing that in their cocktails. Whatever that percentage is, you're investing in your cocktails and the work that you do and the quality you provide to your customer. You should put that into your video.
Chris Schneider:And so along those lines, video is something you should always have on your website, and I know that there are a lot of other elements on websites that we see, whether that's accordions, I know right now are pretty hot. You know where you hit the plus arrow and it expands on track, and then you have things like parallax scrolling, where the picture would stay and the text is up and scroll in front of it. That was really hot there for what a year or two and kind of became the thing, and then it is now definitely not a thing anymore. So what elements within websites are actually working now and what are some things that are people maybe still doing that don't work?
Shelby Hiltunen:Oh, that's great. Honestly, I think people are using way more video picture and brand cohesive strategies to ensure that their brand, kind of, is solid, right when you can't really read or kind of like the old 90s fonts that people use all the time. Honestly, a lot of old WordPress sites and you're kind of like, oh my gosh.
Shelby Hiltunen:I can't read this. What is it? It's confusing. I think what works is making it brand consistent and easy for your customer to use. Make it very obvious Where's the menu, where can I order takeout, where can I make my reservation, where is this? What's the feel Right? Make it as easy as humanly possible with a solid brand. And I think things like the scrolling right. Like I personally have never been a fan of the Parallax because I and this is just me it gives me motion sickness. I don't love it, that's just me personally. But like the accordions, that's great because right, your customer can see and like answer the questions for themselves of what exactly do they want to see, and they don't have to see what they don't. It's able, they're able to customize the experience for themselves and know that you've already thought of these questions for that. So I think as long as you're being thoughtful to your customer and consistent with your brand and making things as easy as possible, then you're doing a good job.
Chris Schneider:Great. So one of the things you mentioned there was call to action, and if you look anywhere online they say, okay, all good websites. You need to have strong calls to action throughout. Well, if you're you and you're selling web design services, it's pretty easy Contact me, book an appointment. Do you want the service? If you're me and you're selling consulting, same thing, right, book an appointment. That's my call to action. Everywhere is just book an appointment, let me talk to you. If you're a, well, they're not booking a Zoom meeting with you. They're not necessarily booking a reservation because maybe you don't take reservations. So what can you use or what types of calls to action can work for businesses that kind of the traditional calls to action don't work for. That's a good question.
Shelby Hiltunen:So it's like you're talking about a place that might not take reservations or might not whatever. Well, I would say well, say well then. Well, what action do you want them to take? Figure out what, when you are building your website and you're picturing your customers looking at it, what do you want them to do? Do you want them to call? Do you want them to just walk in? Do you want them to order? Take out what. What do you want them to do? And then tell them, in short of phrases possible, how to do it. Right, if you want them to walk in and see you tonight, say walk in and see us tonight. If you want them to come on sunday, say come see our bartenders. Say I'm on sunday.
Chris Schneider:You know, just be very clear about what you want and guide them to it when I think that's in some ways counterintuitive to what a lot of people read online, because everyone wants to. You know, everything you read call to action leads to a sales funnel. Blah, blah, blah. Obviously that doesn't work in bars. But come see us is a great call to action, even though there's no further action to take on a website for that. Right Right. It's not sales funnels. We're not tracking data, data, we're not doing any of that. It's just come see us and then hopefully they come in.
Shelby Hiltunen:Um, but I know it's more and it can be pointed towards your socials. You know, see what we're up to tonight.
Chris Schneider:Watch our story, get them working on another one bars need permission to be able to do that. Right, because so much of what you read says don't do that.
Shelby Hiltunen:But at the same time it makes sense in in the bar business to say come see us yeah um and it does think people get scared because it becomes a full-time job if they think that they have to be posting all the time or they think that they have to constantly be producing content and they're like I'm not a content maker, I'm a bar owner. I'm not a content maker. I'm a bar owner. I'm not a content maker, I'm a bartender Like I can't be making that while I'm pouring this beer, right? So I also think that in that sphere of things, I think that you can spend a day, once every three months, creating your, your content that you need to put up there. Right, when you're planning out your deals for your bar for the next three months, or whatever it is, hire your graphic designer and say I need graphics to post three times a week about this special, whatever it is. Just do it once every three months and have it stockpiled and scheduled.
Chris Schneider:That's all you have to do and that is so much easier when you do it in bulk.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah.
Chris Schneider:Because I know, it's just content creation is. It can be enjoyable, but it can also just be a oh my God, I have to produce this today. It's definitely a different skill than running a book.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, and you don't want to be thinking about it every day. It becomes. We call it Pac-Man and it's like the second. I produce one thing, pac-man comes and it's already posted, so I need another, and that's the place you don't want to be. You need to know for yourself and plan ahead so that you can have all of that kind of in store and know okay, I'm going to plan this and I can create these things. And it doesn't even have to be an insane piece of content. It can just be a graphic design, it can be a picture of one of your drinks, it can be whatever it is that works for your bar, but just have it created and schedule it.
Chris Schneider:I think another thing too, when it comes to content creation for bars. Most people that went into acting work in bars. So it's unusual almost to have a bar that you don't have someone there that understands storytelling and acting and all those sorts of things that can help you.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yes, but pay them to do it. Pay your bartender to be your storyteller. Say hey, I really love the work you're doing as a bartender. I respect it. I'm going to ask if I can pay you to use your other skills to do this, since you already know my bar so well. Help me tell this story. What story would you tell? And you know, you can pay your bartenders to be your storytellers but you should definitely be paying them also for being your storyteller or being your salesperson.
Shelby Hiltunen:If they're doing a separate job, pay them for that, because I can't tell you how many jobs people ask bartenders to do on just the bartender salary. You gotta, you gotta pay them for every box they're doing it, please well, and I uh, just kind of aside I was.
Chris Schneider:I frequent reddit more than I should and I was on one of the bar owner, restaurant owner red read it, and somebody was on there talking about like how do I make my staff post my social post to social media every day? Well, they're not going to right. Like to your point, if you're making them do something beyond their job, pay them for doing it, because, at the end, paying a bartender a couple hundred bucks a month to make your content that understands content creation, your content, is going to be better than paying a couple hundred bucks a month to somebody in India that just forces it through algorithms.
Shelby Hiltunen:Absolutely. You know what. The other thing they don't understand is if that bartender is an actor, who an actor is, their face, their voice, all of that is their product.
Shelby Hiltunen:So you're asking them to use their most valuable product, which I don't know how you value it. But if that is their main goal in life and you're not valuing it, then maybe you need to think about your respect for other people. But if you are using their product for your business, pay them for it and they and if you do that and you respect them for that and allow them to tell your stories, they're going to be a much happier bartender and that's going to increase your culture and your customer experience. And all of that, like all in one, it's a win for and you're going to have more money in your pocket even after paying them. Whatever you pay them.
Chris Schneider:And on a completely now kind of out of left field side note, if you have people because most people don't realize this, but if you have people that are actors that also bartend for you, they cannot, and they're in the union. They can't act without getting paid Right Right. They can't act without getting paid Right Right. They literally cannot make a video for you, even of them making a cocktail, without getting their day rate, because the union rules.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yep, and they might not be able to do a period based on the union rules, because if it's not a union, if they're not getting yeah, there are a lot of rules that go into it because they like to treat their employees well.
Chris Schneider:Yeah, well, and it's just. I've been around some some video production folks over the years and it's the movie industry and acting as an industry and the way the unions work and all that. It's what you get from a hundred years of serious, complex lawyers arguing. That is the movie industry. It's a hundred years of lawyers making shit up and arguing with each other. It's so funny. Oh my gosh, I love that. But it does come into play if you're trying to use people on your staff that are also actors to produce content.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, and they can produce the content without being on screen themselves. But if you're, if you're expecting them to create content, then pay them for it and they'll probably do a really great job. There's most talented people in the world have bartended at one point I think most of the time at one point in time or still bartending the most amazing storytellers, those amazing artists like you have they probably you probably have the most amazing talent at your bar because, like I said when I we started in this conversation, I don't think you can separate actors and hospitality.
Chris Schneider:No like that is just it's part of the experience I feel like on both sides actors are people like we love people we no and we're actors, are people.
Shelby Hiltunen:We love people, we love observation, we love being around people. I think that I've seen in my experience I've had people want to kind of overstep the employee. Whatever the employee contract is right, like I'm hired to be a bartender, I'm not hired to be the you know the designer and your beverage director and you're whatever right. Like just know what you're asking people and and show them that you value it now, because we're kind of talking about short form video and content creation here.
Chris Schneider:There there is that argument does quality matter, matter? We kind of got into that. But what can you know? A lot of bar owners, they have their iPhone, they're recording some stuff. You know, maybe, if they're lucky, they have a tripod to put their phone on and a ring light. But what are some simple things that folks can do to elevate the level of production that isn't going to break the bank, that doesn't really require going out and spending $500 on different pieces of equipment and new lights and all that sort of stuff.
Shelby Hiltunen:Sure. So some really simple things. Lighting can absolutely change the quality of everything you get. A ring light is actually a great example. If you get a ring light or you get, most bar owners are probably going to just want the ring light and you can use it for multiple things. Right, you can use that ring light to light the drink while you, while you're shooting it. But lighting is really important, just like it's important when your customers are on their date and you want that to be a little bit dark, so everyone looks a little bit cuter. You want the lighting for your, for your, your content to be as good as humanly possible. Um, so lighting. Uh, having your camera on the highest quality setting so if you can have a 4k camera, you can have 180, um camera. That's great.
Shelby Hiltunen:Uh, you want to keep your filter consistent through all of them. So I would recommend to everyone, uh, whatever you're using for your, your like to have a brand filter as part of your brand kit, right, and use it across all of your videos. So if you're, if you're, a dive bar, you might have like a warmer filter that you put on everything and just give it that consistent look. Use color contrast, use portrait mode. I mean there are a million tips and tricks that you can use, and even just go on YouTube and watch half an hour and just then watch videos and just literally Google that and you're going to find a million tips. But at the end of the day, consistency is key. So, whatever you do, do it for all of them, because if you look inconsistent, then you're not consistent for your customer and that's where people don't trust you. They're going to trust you if you're consistent, even if it's not the best right, but stay consistent.
Chris Schneider:Yeah, that is definitely so important and one of the things because we've kind of talked about the website and how you produce that. We've talked about video a little bit, how you produce that, but one of the big things here is, all of this is just a way to tell a story and that story also has to be consistent and it's I mean, let's be honest here, most of our owners, most of our managers, are not writers, right, and a lot of this is whether you're writing a loosely scripting out something for a video or you're writing copy for the website. You have to have in that also a consistent voice. But how do you a, how do you find a writing voice? And then, b, how do you make sure that you're giving folks enough, but not too much, because I feel like people either summarize things to the point where you have no clue what they're saying or just word vomit. You know 5,000 words that 4,000 of them I don't need to read.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, well, that's you know, it's a whole industry. Hire a copywriter, hire a copywriter, walk through your brand with them, tell them your brand personality, tell them your ideal customer, and a good copywriter is going to help you tell your story in a unique way, in as few words as possible. How can I explain exactly who you are in as few words as possible? And your designer is going to be able to help show that through graphics as well. And that's part of the mood board and that's part of knowing your aesthetic right, like what is the aesthetic personality and voice of your brand. And then bring in copywriters and if you can't honestly go on chat GPT, tell GPT your brand voice, name, whatever it is. I never use that as a final product. It's just not there yet, but it'll give you some inspiration and it'll help you.
Shelby Hiltunen:And then look at your competitors. What are your competitors doing and how are they using it and how can you kind of use inspiration from them and what do you like that they're doing? What do you not like that they're doing? Where can you find inspiration to be your best self? But it's it's all unique to each bar. There's no one answer for each bar. It's like it's like someone who's trying to work their way through life and they don't know who they are. If you don't know who you are, I can't help you. If you know who you are, then I'm going to help you. Tell your story all day, every day. We're going to make it.
Chris Schneider:I love that. I love that you have to know who you are, and that is something that so many businesses struggle with, right? Because that's everything we've talked about comes down to that one statement, and it's just. It's not easy for everybody to see that picture.
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, and if you don't know who you are, hire someone like me. Walk me through your whole business, introduce me to your staff, let me see what you're selling, let me see what your goals are, let me and I'll tell you. There are people out there who can tell you we are Italian women with big attitudes, and we'll tell you exactly who you are.
Chris Schneider:I believe it Now along those lines. Just one other question when it comes specifically to the copywriting side of things, there is a lot about tenses and things, and not to get overly into grammar because I know that's not something most people in bar industry like to discuss either is grammar, but things like passive voice can be bad. You have to. From my understanding, you have to watch sentence construction, what are some things kind of in that realm of grammar that you see where people mess up a lot.
Shelby Hiltunen:That's such a great question. The biggest thing and this actually comes from my producing partner, who was in marketing for 35 years and I've been lucky enough to take some jones from him um, the biggest thing is most people on their sites or in their copywriting they're talking about themselves. Only when you want to be talking to the customer, you're talking either to the customer or about the customer. What is the experience that I, as a customer, I'm going to have? Going to your bar Because I'm reading your website and I want to learn about you. But if there's an about you section, I can kind of learn the nitty gritty of you, but what am I getting as a customer? It's actually about me, right? The whole bar experience is actually about the customer. So why aren't you gearing your copy to them?
Shelby Hiltunen:That's the biggest thing. So, in terms of tenses, you're a 35-year-old actress meeting a director for the first time. We're this bar, this beautiful cocktail bar that's upscale, that's not going to break your bank and make you look like you know New York. Like the accuracy, whatever it is right, like a specific thing, and that would be an advertisement you send to a very specific, right profile person, right, and you can do that, but you see how it's making it about her. About what? How are you fixing your customer's problem?
Chris Schneider:Right and I think that's a great overall point. Just because so many people struggle with essentially right, A lot of it's just the ability to write in um second person right talking about you rather than talking about me. It's not about what I do. It's about what you want um it's tough, can I put?
Shelby Hiltunen:you on the spot for a second yeah okay, can you just give me like a sentence about like what a podcast guest experience would be on your podcast with you? So like tell me about your podcast with this voice.
Chris Schneider:Being on my podcast is a great way for you to be able to reach bar owners and share your experience in a way that provides value to the bar owner community and allows people to become more educated and exposed to different aspects of the bar business and some more technical aspects than often people talk about.
Shelby Hiltunen:Okay, so your first word should be you.
Chris Schneider:Yeah.
Shelby Hiltunen:Because then immediately I'm like, oh me, what I'm paying attention. Then immediately I'm like, oh me, what I'm paying attention. You are going to share your experiences, your values and your technical expertise to bar owners to teach them about how they can better their business In that way and you can use way more of the words I just have, I didn't write it all down. You're making it about oh my gosh, it's me. You're saying you first, you, okay. Making it about, oh my gosh, it's me. You're saying you first, you, okay, You're going to share your experiences. I get to talk about me. Yes, please, you're going to add the value that you add your technical expertise.
Shelby Hiltunen:I get to talk about all the things I'm good at and show off in front of a community. That means a lot to me. That's what you're telling them, right? So instead of on my podcast, it's you are going to get to share your expertise on blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's kind of, I think, what a lot of people lose on it. Right, because you do want them to know who you are and they do need to know who they're talking to and what it's about. But the very first thing they really know and want to hear right Like everyone's favorite word is their own name on the lips of the person who loves them. So how do you make it as much about them as possible?
Chris Schneider:Well, it also seems like I have new copy now when I reach out to podcasts.
Shelby Hiltunen:Got you. There you go, I got you.
Chris Schneider:Always grab what you can steal right, Absolutely.
Shelby Hiltunen:I'm here for you.
Chris Schneider:Well, with that we're kind of towards the end of our time, so I know we've covered a lot, but is there anything else that we have not discussed over about the last 50 minutes that you think it's really important for the listeners and bar owners to know when it comes to their marketing and brand strategy, and all of that?
Shelby Hiltunen:Yeah, I think that you need to know yourself, you need to know your, your bar, you need to know your bar personality and you need to be consistent. And I think as long as you do that and you treat your people well and see the value in your own people, I think that that's. That's a really beautiful place to start.
Chris Schneider:Not only is it a beautiful place to start, it's an achievable place to start. Yes, right you, you've taken all this scary stuff and made it not scary, which is really it's.
Shelby Hiltunen:It's very doable and it's very human. You know, I think. I think it's easy to, when we don't know something, we kind of put it on a pedestal or we put it like it's out of our reach. Oh my gosh, I can never do that. Well, other human beings are doing it. They're just other humans. You can do it too, you know. You just have to dig deep and get that confidence. You've started a bar. You can do this, are you?
Chris Schneider:kidding me? That is true, it's almost nothing is as hard as starting a bar. Oh my gosh.
Shelby Hiltunen:In and of itself, yeah, I listened to one of your other episodes and it was the mental health episode, which I just think is absolutely incredible and so ridiculously important. But he said that being a bartender is like the 13th most dangerous job and I was like my God, that made me want to scream from the rooftops. I told you I'm a badass, like you know, I've been a bartender here for seven years. Like, don't mess with me, you know. So it truly, I think, um, I think it's just it's also finding the right people to work with is is the right person to work with your bartender.
Shelby Hiltunen:Can they help you do it? Do you need to hire a copywriter? Do you need to hire a graphic designer? And invest in yourself? You know it's like investing in your health as a person is investing in. Are you investing in the gym? Great, invest in your website.
Chris Schneider:I have to say thank you so much for being here, because this has been a great conversation and really nice to get viewpoints on websites from someone that's not in restaurants and bars, because it's hard to see what's going on outside the industry when we all have our heads down in the industry. And I'm sure some folks have heard what you have said and probably want to get in touch with you. So what is the best way for people to contact you?
Shelby Hiltunen:Sure. So first of all, thank you so much for having me. I absolutely love your podcast and it's truly incredible to be on here, so thank you and thank you for all your time. Best way to get ahold of me my website is hold my crown productionscom, and you can get ahold of me through there, or Shelby at Naptown mediacom is my is my email address. You can see my. If you're interested in the bar series that I wrote, it's the usual seriescom, but all my information's there and, yeah, I would love to work with bar owners.
Chris Schneider:Oh, my gosh, I would love it. Well, we will link all of that in the show notes. So if you're listening to this on a podcast platform or if you're on YouTube, it'll all be in the show notes below so you can go find the links to get a hold of Shelby. But with that, that's going to about wrap us up for today. So if you guys enjoyed today's episode, make sure you like, subscribe, leave a review.
Chris Schneider:If you want to gain more insights on the bar industry and talk with other bar owners, make sure you join our Bar Business Nation Facebook group where we're just building a community and really able to have some powerful conversations there, because we have all bar owners and bar managers. Powerful conversations there because we have all bar owners and bar managers and everyone knows what's going on and share tips and tricks, because sometimes what people are doing in New York versus what people are doing, say, where Shelby and I am, or in Indiana, are worlds apart and we can all learn from each other and with that, everybody. I hope you have a great day and we will talk again later.
